The Sorcerer's World

[What follows is a dialog between Quantum Shaman and Gonzo which seems relevant. Gonzo's comments in blue, QS's comments in red. Thanks to both parties for allowing it to be posted here. MM]


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Perhaps I err in assuming that anyone engaged in these spiritual pursuits has somehow become aware of the societal and familial programming to which they have been subjected. I presume if they have, then there is no issue in regard freedom that is associated with these rather banal elements. So, when I get a response in re "Freedom from what?" like the following:

Quote:

If you ignore/disregard that you are slave of outside forces, how can I explain you further? To anything I would say, I would add "freedom from deluded dull normals".

...then I say the answerer is avoiding the question, since as I said, the given is we all understand this. The problem with this answer, and with others answers to this question is that the real answer is personal...it has nothing to do with the forces of society, nothing to do with gaining second attention, nothing to do with perceiving "reality", nothing to do with heightened perception. I has to do with what the person is running from...and that's personal. There is a reason why anyone seeks "freedom", or seeks "enlightenment", and the reason lies in their estimation of what they are at the moment and why they find that needing work, or change.

If you asked me "freedom from what", I would begin with what I already said in chat:

Quote:

What is often unseen is that a paradigm is created which is overlaid onto all that society's members, whether they are aware of it or not. And even for those of us who ARE aware, some of the programs are so intrinsic to society/culture that they take on a life of their own - ergo all this nonsense about "fliers". Really, the "foreign installation" is not put there by any aliens or fliers. It's an extension of our human experience, BUT THE PROBLEM IS...

...it will always default to the lowest common denominator. IOW, the world is a nuthouse & the lunatics really ARE running the asylum. Stupidity is the LCD, so essentially the world is created BY the stupid FOR the stupid... and the rest of us must overcome that paradigm if we are to have any hope of real "freedom".

To that, I would add, in response to what you are saying in your email...

It's not a matter of just being aware of the "normal" programs. It's a far deeper awareness (clarity/seeing) of what those programs actually DO to us if we allow it. A simple one: "All things die." This is actually a command of the foreign installation - IOW, a belief system which runs so DEEP in our lives that we are virtually powerless to choose any other course of action. You may argue, "Well, D****, all things DO die," but that would only underscore the fact that you yourself are deeply absorbed into the program yourself. *shrugs* Here's why: if you are REALLY honest with yourself, you as John W**** cannot REALLY know for a fact that "all things die" because you would have to admit there are things you as John W**** simply do not and cannot know without direct personal knowledge. To your current PERCEPTION, it appears that "all things die", but what if (just what if...) tales of the tenant are true, or there are other immortals walking the earth? How would YOU know?

Answer... you wouldn't and you couldn't IF YOU ARE ALREADY OF THE MINDSET WHICH SAYS "ALL THINGS DIE." You would never even CONSIDER the possibility because you already BELIEVE you know the answer... so you aren't really "free" in that case, but are actually the victim of the program which tells you WHAT to believe. THAT is the foreign installation - it is the shit put onto you not just in terms of social/cultural programs, but right down to the molecular level at which you EXIST.

When I talk about wanting freedom from "the programs" THAT is what I'm referring to: freedom from the AUTOMATIC and often INVISIBLE effects of some of these deeper programs. The social/cultural programs are only the tip of the iceberg. Beneath/beyond those programs you start getting into the more "sinister" programming such as "all things die" or "women are inherently inferior" or "homosexuality is abberent" and so on and on and on. While some of these may appear to be "social/cultural" programs, my observation after all these years on the path is that at least SOME of those programs are in place to PROTECT the status quo of the lowest common denominator, rather than encourating/enabling folks to to BEYOND the program.

So... freedom from WHAT? Simply what I've said above. It's not just "the program", it's the paradigms and sub-programs which "the program" creates in each individual, and in the culture/society as a whole.

How might our experience of life be different if we did not have the program "all things die" fed to us while we are still in the womb? What might we be CAPABLE of if we were not "dumbed down" to the lowest common denominator of human ignorance? A real and true PROGRAM is not just something the computer "believes". It is essentially what the computer IS... until the program crashes, is made to crash, or replaced by an upgrade.

I'm looking for freedom from the low-end software.

And I would add that the "problem" we face (those who would say they are seeking freedom) is that the collective is perhaps 6 billion strong, whereas each individual is a force of One. So... the gravity of the situation is rather obvious.

Because of how you have presented this notion, there is no way to respond since any response not in agreement would be deemed as result of the foreign installation and proof of its existence.

Normally when someone attempts to derail the idea of freedom, it is PRECISELY because they are hooked into the foreign installation. *shrugs* Not a judgment, just an observation based on things you've said all along, and particularly what you are saying in this current convo. In arguing for status quo (which is what you're doing), you are indicating that you have "surrendered" to the current paradigm. Imagine how our world would be different had everyone throughout history done the same. We would still live in caves or grass huts at best, women would be bed slaves whelping out children, and we would all believe in some version of a god - because those are all the lowest common denominators of human existence. Sorry... we are capable of better, and it is only in striving to our HIGHEST potential that we move beyond that LOWEST common denominator.

I'm going to respond anyway, if for no other reason than to clarify my own notions for myself. My preference is to see and to accept things as they are. I see no reason either to challenge or to change the current paradigm.

That alone is evidence of surrender to the FI, imo. No, not some alien entity. Just the status quo. It is only when the paradigm itself evolves that people (individuals or civilizations) are enabled to seek BEYOND their current limitations. Put another way: argue for your limitations, and they are yours. Isn't that what you're doing?

As with the world and humanity at large, it requires no fixing. In effect, your proposition as with others of its kind aims really to attempt to create some sort of a Nirvana, a situation of constant heightened awareness, perhaps even a K-pax style of being where there are no rules, or laws, because they aren't needed.

Frankly, I couldn't care less about paradise or Nirvana, rules or laws. What I care about personally is freedom from the limitations which are automatically imposed by the simple existence of the FI. In the mid-70s, I actually pre-qualified for the astronaut program, but when it was discovered that I had a cunt instead of a prick, I was immediately disqualified and told I could only fly prop planes. Not jets. Couldn't be a combat pilot. Could only... blah blah blah... and the usual rhetoric reserved for those with cunts. It was the height of insult and dismissal, since my qualifications were in the top 2% of the nation. So it wasn't my ABILITY that prevented me from doing what I wanted to do. It was my anatomy. And WHY was it my anatomy? Because the FI dictated at that time that women were inferior to men and... yada yada yada... the rest is history.

Had I been smarter throughout my "writing career" (makes me gag at this point), I would have used the alternym, "David Alexander," because I recently read an article wherein it was PROVEN that the same book submitted under a male name or a female name will have a 95% BETTER chance of selling if it is from a male author. 95%. What does that say to you about the FI. We're talking about the EXACT same manuscript... the EXACT same words... but the difference between "David" or "Debbie" determines what sells, not whether or not the book is any goddamn good.

These little facts are part of the status quo you seem determined to protect when you say "it requires no fixing." Maybe you're right in the so-called "big picture", but only in the sense that it's up to every human being to find a way AROUND the FI or a way to be BEYOND the FI (ergo... freedom from the FI), but in the experience of everyday life, the FI is frankly designed to "protect" people who support its old-boy structure, and to oppress and suppress those who see it for what it is (an old-boys club of the nth degree).

So, maybe you think you have no reason to change it - but it isn't about Nirvana. It's not even about "fairness" because this world will never be fair, or anywhere close to it. It's simply about freedom from it ALTOGETHER. And the only way I have found to achieve that is the keen awareness of it, and the absolute refusal to play in its paradigm. Problem is, while still in humanform, we are subjected to it at one level or another by default - so the concept of freedom is also one that lies in the distance, beyond the horizon of current affairs and the old boys paradigm. Can it be achieved? Sure. I've done it and so have others. But if we're completely honest, we have to admit that "it" is still always out there, and since it is an all-pervasive force which exists on the human bandwidth/frequency, it is always automatically seeking/searching in an attempt to hook us back in. Put another way: even when we turn off the radio (the FI), the radio waves themselves are still in the air, all around us. So it is a constant battle to remain awake and aware and not get lullabyed back into the comforting arms of the happy status quo.

Add to that the notion of immortality. In all of those scenarios what is at the basis of them is a condemnation of how things are at the moment...all the cruelty, all the pain, all the death, all the injustice, all the hate, etc etc etc.

It's far more than that. It's not just the "bad" stuff, it's also the expectations put onto humans by the paradigm that has so fucked them up. We're all supposta look like Hollywood movie stars, so women starve themselves half to death, wear clothes that make them look like hookers, and surgically carve their bodies into all sorts of bizarre manifestations because the FI tells them they are worthless otherwise. If you're over 30, you're "over the hill"... the programs there are endless. The men live in a constant state of feeling inadequate because they aren't getting enough pussy to qualify as an "alpha male", and they don't look like Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise, so they end up feeling resentful toward the women who won't give them a second look... and ALL of this is not because of nature, but because we have been PROGRAMMED by the FI to think that only a narrow range of attributes is considered "desirable", while the rest of humanity is dismissed as ugly, lazy, slothful, and so on. That's simply NOT our nature. We are just human beings with a wide range of physical, mental and spiritual attributes - but because the FI has programmed us to think we MUST be a certain way in order to be "acceptable", most spend their lives in a state of fear and misery - believing they are not "good enough." That alone is a full-time occupation (and distraction) for most.

Yes, freedom from THAT would be good as well. Personally, I no longer have the insecurity issues, but many do, and I mention it as a good way to illustrate WHY the FI is not yer friend, despite what you may think. You can defend it all you like, saying it's just a paradigm through which a society protects itself; but it is a hideous bit of software that has nothing to do with our well-being, and everything to do with the generation and maintenance of insecurity, fear, pain, and emotional anguish.

Why? For as long as humans (individuals or societies as a whole) are held in this type of emotional/mental/spiritual bondage, they simply have no will to challenge the FI itself, and so the status quo is maintained. What would be the purpose of that? Simply put, the universe appears to be designed in such a way that evolution is a natural part of our progress, but so are obstacles which stand in the way of that evolution. So, when I say I want freedom from the FI... I have no delusions that I am going to bring it to the ground and open up a brave new world of condos for bliss ninnies, or anything of the sort. I'm not here to save the world. Couldn't care less. I'm here to save myself - and the first step toward doing that is to PERSONALLY shake off the programs which are intrinsic to the FI.

In an obscure Geo C Scott movie titled "They Might be Giants", he addresses a crowd of street people beneath a bridge on the Hudson surrounded by trash and he says to them, "THIS is Paradise."

That's Hollywood. And it's also the voice of the FI. "Come with us to Ixtlan." Thanks, I'll pass.

So, we differ actually on basics. I'm drawn to Zen because in essence it promotes the acceptance of things as they are, not as we might wish them to be.

Keep in mind that Zen comes from a culture where people were repressed and beaten down by warlords and the like, for centuries. That being the case, they no doubt HAD to learn to accept things "as they are" and so their philosophy would reflect their environment, just as the current US "philosophy" reflects our environment - i.e., the current generation is "The Generation of Entitlement", and the philosophy seems to be one which states the world owes them something. Philosophy reflects environment. Not always a good thing, in other words. I'm not going to get into an argument w/ you about Zen. Heh. I'm simply pointing out that NO philosophy is the be-all, end-all, including Zen, Toltec or any other. All philosophies (every one of them) are about learning to cope with or somehow subvert the dominant paradigm. Zen is about acceptance. Toltec is more about subversion - not on any grand scale, but at the level of the individual. Both are only guidelines, road maps. So when we talk about "freedom from the foreign installation", it's essentially a freedom from ALL philosophy. The good, the bad, the ugly. ALL of it - and it will come down to one thing: create your own reality, or be crushed under someone else's.

I'm drawn to notions expressed in The Michael Book in regard the purpose of human existence. I'm drawn too, to notions expressed in "Illusions", things like, "The depth of your ignorance may be measured by your belief in injustice and tragedy." And I'm drawn to what Robert Monroe wrote about, further adding to notions from the Michael book, further adding to a purpose for existing, as well as a purpose for experiencing being human, and a purpose for experiencing death.

All fine and good. But I'm not going to accept on someone else's word (not yours, Monroe's, Buddha's or Christ's) that there is a 'purpose for experiencing death'. Again, that's just the voice of the FI, programming us to accept ITS paradigm, when we are perfectly capable of creating our own. Death may be "natural". Or not. It was once a fact that the natural lifespan was less than 35 years. As a species, we essentially knocked that paradigm out of the water. We live a bit longer now because we CHOSE to kick the existing paradigm in the nut sack. The earth was once flat, too, as you may recall.

That's what the whole warrior schtick is about - kicking the FI in the nuts and saying no to Big Brother - which is really just an extension of the hive mind, the gnattering and chattering internal dialog of the lowest common denominator of our humanness. I don't see any boogeymen out there, though I'm sure others would disagree. All I really *see* is that our thoughts are made of energy, and that energy can take on a life of its own - and has done so in the form of the foreign installation. The "baddies" are us - not just 5-6 billion strong (earth's current population), but the combined strength of every human being who has ever lived on the planet. It is the combined belief systems and self-limiting bullshit which has been thrown into the pot since the first caveman crawled out of the primordial stew and got eaten by whatever was in the habit of eating cavemen. Grogg-zugg may be dead, but the energy of his fears lives on in the energetic matrix of the FI itself.

THAT is what we're struggling to overcome.

Maybe all things do die, but I rather doubt that. It appears to me to be just one more extension of the foreign installation - because when humans can be limited to a very finite lifespan, their chance of disturbing the larger status quo is minimalized. So... when we can be programmed to believe "all things die", chances are we become far more humble in the face of our mortality, and subservient to the machine which promises to "save" us (whether in the form of medical intervention or spiritual salvation), while at the same time reminding us that we are beings who are going to die (and don't you forget it!). Maybe true. But... what if it isn't? What if tales of the tenant are true? What if immortality is just as real as mortality, but our programming doesn't allow us to see it? If we don't ask the questions, if we just blindly accept our "fate," we have already bowed down before the FI and bared our throat to the executioner. Sorry... not my way.

I function from this basis, and when therefore I ask someone what they want freedom from, I suspect it is freedom from the current paradigm, freedom from the bad and painful, and above all, freedom from death. So, in that regard, I hear what you're saying. That corresponds with your basic notions....it does not correspond with mine.

That's fair, but have you asked yourself - REALLY asked yourself - where your notions come from? Why is it seemingly so easy for you to argue for accepting "what is" when it is plain to see that none of it is real, but simply an extension of the program itself? People aren't real - ergo the comment "phantoms on the road to Ixtlan." Do you really know what Genaro meant by that? Phantoms aren't ghosts or zombies or some sort of boogeymen. They are simply people who have gone back to sleep (or never woke up to begin with), and are the happy servants of the foreign installation itself. If you aren't at war with the machine, or actively seeking freedom from it, you are in league with it. There is no middle ground in my opinion.

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This may be ongoing. If so, I will post updates as they occur.
MM

Hi Gonzo and Della,

I believe personal experience trumps all mind sets installed by the FI. One can talk about tonal related reality (FI inflicted) until one is blue in the face, but until one has actually experienced the nagual, it is just that, talk.

The problem with talking versus knowing (silent knowledge) is that one becomes stuck in the tonal but does not know it. The sad part is the belief that talking will propell oneself into the nagual through logic and reason. Logic and reason are hall marks of the FI.

Regards,

Bill W.

Yo Bill,

New face here? I am renound (at least in my mind) for my crazy/bad behaviour here. I expect that all good warriors at some point suffer with some kind of severe delusional reality complex, Thats my excuse anyway!!! and I have appologised for being a d**k

I hear what you are saying about experience, although I don't think what you are saying will be news to Della or Gonzo. (well maybe Gonzo since it is he who would no doubt like to understand a bit more about the FI.)

I understand what the FI is mentaly, I have a little diagram, since I am good at picturing things, but what does this little picture of mine have little to do with the FI? I guess for now it is all I have!

So Bill, you talk about experience like a man who has some. Can you tell us more about the FI ? Nice to meet you Bill.


Florenzo.

Absolute truth.

I noticed that comment when Sorcerer3 first posted it and have to admit I don't see the logic and reason in it. hehheh. Care to explain why logic and reason are the hallmarks of the FI?

Anybody?

Mel

Heh. Well since you're sitting at my desk drinking my bad coffee *LOL* I could hit you with my opinion straight up and in person, but you said you want a written response, so here goes...

I can't speak for Sorcerer3, but my own experience of it is that people who try to argue for "logic and reason" in the realms of spiritual matters are usually (not always) spouting the rhetoric of the existing paradigm, the dominant belief systems. Example: when someone says it's not "logical" to believe that the double can be a physical being with a life of its own... what they are really saying is that the idea itself conflicts with their existing belief system. So they invoke "logic" which, in this case, is only another name for fear. What they are really doing is arguing for the comfort zone of the status quo without ever really stopping to consider whether or not the original statement (re the double) may have some validity or not.

It's the same thing as parents telling their young children, "There's no such thing as a ghost, or monster. It's crazy to think such things exist."

In reality, the parent may have perfectly good intentions - upholding the dominant paradigm and (supposedly) attempting to alleviate a child's fear - but when they invoke words like "crazy" or "unreasonable" or "illogical"... again, what they are really saying is that such things do not exist ACCORDING TO THE EXISTING AGREEMENT/CONSENSUS... when in reality it is not possible to make such a definitive statement. A parent might say, "I've never seen a ghost and neither has your mother." But to say "There's no such thing... and it's unreasonable for you to think so..." that's when we start getting into the realm of the foreign installation.

Put simply, the foreign installation is highly dependent on humanform agreements and consensuses. As long as humans agree it's "not reasonable" to search for immortality, for example, most will never even make an effort. As long as humans agree it's "illogical" to acknowledge the existence of the "supernatural" (the nagual), most will remain happy zombies, hand-fed their own brains by the existing consensus.

Of course, it has to be pointed out that REAL logic and reason fall under the heading of clarity. When a warrior/seeker has gained clarity, a different type of logic and reason begin to manifest - not dependent on any consensus, but on the ability to see beyond the agreements themselves.

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Thanks for coming along this weekend.

ah, i've been reading the active side of infinity recently, just finished it, and thought it was apt that the first post i read made me think about it

i think at the end of whatever 'logic' you use, the fi agrees with itself at the end of it anyway!

quantumshaman, are you saying that once a warrior has achieved clarity then that's the end of the foreign installation? i might be making a sweeping statement here, but i guess after the fi has retreated, the glowing coat of awareness grows back and power starts to emerge?

also, hello again guys it's been a while! recently i took some more baby steps towards freedom, and life's getting a bit crazy, it seemed to be time to come back D

hope you're all doing well!

I don't know what D would say in answer to your question about clarity, but my observation has been that clarity gives us AWARENESS of the FI, and with that awareness a warrior is able to reject the automatic responses fed into us by the program. We know the programs exist and can see them but with clarity we take back a small measure of our power. Funny thing is that even though you or I may see the FI at work, most peeps in the real world don't see it at all and will actually fight to their death to protect it. Weird thing but I see it every day. That's part of the FI too. It makes people happy to be its slave.

Welcome back.

thanks, that makes sense to me

one thing that bothers me about the FI, is that i never really know whether it's my instincts, the fi, my double, god, whatever that's attempting to guide me. it's usually the FI, but i sometimes make errors in judgement believing that i'm just disregarding another piece of crap from the depths, which, later actually turned out to be something special i missed out on. apart from that im attempting to cultivate an awareness of how i felt at the times when i went with an idea and it was successful, everything went well, because those times i just 'know' were times when i've 'followed my heart'.

it's weird though, i guess i'll never be able to let my guard down until it goes, if it ever does! and i guess that's the struggle.

The whole FI thing bothers me, haha. how would i ever know it's really gone? i guess you'd just know.

Good to hear another voice out there.

Hey - good to hear from you again!

The FI isn't what most people think it is. It's not some alien probe or some sinister plot put forth by "the flyers". It's us. Plain and simple. When I say it is "us", I mean it is the programs and belief systems with which humans have been uploaded since the dawn of time - the things we think and believe because we are human and it's what we've been taught and told for so long that we BELIEVE it is real even when it probably isn't.

As to how to tell whether it's your own double or the FI attempting to guide you... For me, it's usually an entirely different feeling. When the double speaks, there is a sense of knowing that is absolute. When the FI speaks, it is most often accompanied by the words "should" or a sense of "this is what my mama would want me to do." Heh. IOW, the FI operates from the standpoint of selling us the programs with which we have already been imbued. "You should go to church on Sunday." "You should get a real job and settle down." "You should climb the clock tower and take out half the town." (Yes, even anti-programs can be programs, but that's another story for another day).

Also, a warrior is in a constant state of self-check. Meaning, one needs to really stop and ask oneself from moment to moment, "Is this my free will at work, or the result of what I believe I SHOULD do (i.e., the FI)?" Usually, when we just stop and ask ourselves that question, it's fairly easy to see which is which, particularly for anyone who has been on the path for any length of time. Learning to *see* the foreign installation is the easy part. Learning to reject its dictates is where the real work begins.

Hope this clarifies.

D

this is a really good post. it's weird to see someone else talk about this stuff... it's like we're both climbing up to around the same spot, but from different origination points.

i definitely agree that a foreign installation exists- i became aware of it during (don't laugh!) my first acid trip a few years ago. I was making insanely logical connections like never before, but those truths extended beyond the self-contained world of the FI and, me being an honest sunuvabitch, I let those wings unfurl, despite the intense anxious gnawing feeling and almost being sucked through the dark wind into the cosmic vagina. Even if it conflicted with what I believed the world to be at the 'reactive' or 'intuitive' level at that point, the realizations i made about ourselves and the universe were so plain and strikingly true, i either had to die with the FI- release into the cosmic vagina- or let my new being grow from out of the shattered cocoon of the old one.

maybe someday i'll die, and that's what death will feel like, i know it, but i will experience a different outcome. i'm pretty into reincarnation/ karma like buddha dharma talks about, so maybe my next life will be the one where true freedom is acquired. I have a lot of negative karma to counterbalance right now though, i really can't see myself having time to acquire the stillness of one who can slip through the narrow slit of death's tightrope corridor. there really isn't anything else better to do with our time here on earth, though. in a way, the greatest thing you can do to help the earth and your fellow man IS to help yourself evolve spiritually and especially attain karmic balance. as for the foreign installation, it is a very small role, as far as eternity is concerned ya know?

sorry to be so personal, i am largely withdrawn and find it easiest to relate to others in this personally cognitive way. not trying to be heavy, just putting as much as i can 'out there'.

whoever's reading this, i hope you have a beautiful, endearing day~! muchos amor~!

You mentioned becoming aware of the FI during an acid trip. I *saw* a lot of the FI on a couple of journeys with the mushroom ally. Seems that when our perception is expanded and enhanced we see clearly for the first time, or at the very least we get a much broader understanding of the stuff we've been standing in since before we were born. LOL.

And, fwiw, "heavy" is most definitely allowed here.

Welcome back!

I would like to get heavy. I started out always striving to be an impeccable person. But things have become so impossible. I feel trapped in the knowledge of what i am. Being able to sneak around behind the scenes. But to my horror i am still me

I still have all the same bad selfish behaviour but i dont even know how to act anymore. I am a burden to social situations. Stunting the flow with my strange ways. My steady gaze. Manipulating. This is my trouble. And it is heavy. But i am still happier

Happier than i have ever been. No one. Can touch me but i cannot touch anyone. Well i purpose the one. Thing we can count on is change